Discussion: Douglas Russell

Discussion with Douglas Russell, actor playing the part of Ewan Tavendale in the Prime Productions production of Sunset Song.

Interviewer
How do you do acting? What's your general approach, your method?

Douglas
A lot of it I think is instinct. You start off and you make sure you've read the play, read it quite a few times; everything that you need to know is in the text, or in this case maybe in the source novel as well. And you need to know what you're saying and why you're saying it, and then you just do it. And what's most important, for me one of the most important things is what the other person is doing. Because that'll influence massively what you're doing. So you can't make too many decisions ahead of rehearsals, personally speaking, so you get the script and see what happens in rehearsals basically. Help from the director, help from the other actors. And you hope it's not crap. (Laughter)

Interviewer
So, trying to relate that a bit to Stanislavsky and Brecht and so on, do you have any knowledge of those, do you follow any of those ideas?

Douglas
Well I have read Stanislavsky and I have seen some Brecht and read a few Brecht plays, I've read things about him. Not hugely. I used to go about buying books about acting and how to do it and I've read quite a lot of these things, but the best books I've read are ones that are just very, very basic simple things. The best thing about acting technique are things like 'Stand there and don't move unless you have to'. Things like that are actually the best advice. You know, make sure when you look at someone, look him in the eye. And don't look through them, rather than things like .... well, everybody has their own way of doing it and I do, you do believe it, sort of, most of the time, but then that's not quite the same as Stanislavsky's emotional memory. Emotional memory is maybe something that you fall back on when you don't know what to do.

Interviewer
Tell me what you mean by emotional memory.

Douglas
Well, the way I understand it is that is you recall something, an incident from your past life. For example, if somebody in the play has died, you can call on a death from your past life and try and remember what that feels like. Apparently you are only supposed to use it about once: you get the feeling of your memory in your stomach or something in rehearsal, and then you work to get that feeling again. But I would say it's better just to pretend! Because I think if you're an actor you should have a really good imagination.

Interviewer
And you've got to go beyond things that you've experienced.

Douglas
Yeah, there's no two deaths are going to be the same and you just imagine - because every person could experience everything. I would say that when you're born, your life could go anywhere, you're totally shaped by what happens to you in your life. So therefore if you happen to be born in 1900 or 1880 or whatever it is, in Scotland, the North-East, the faming community, and if you've grown up like that, it will influence your personality. So therefore you could reasonably be, as long as you were reasonably cast, you could reasonably be that person. So therefore just put yourself in their position and say 'Well, how would I react? If somebody said that to me and I said that, well how would that be?'

Interviewer
So it's reacting more than acting?

Douglas
Yeah, yeah.

Interviewer
Or acting is reacting?

Douglas
Totally

Interviewer
Listening, watching, and responding.

Douglas
Trying to just react, because the temptation is always to give out a lot of energy and all the rest of it, you know energy and all the rest of that. Pace of course comes into it as well, but the temptation is to do too much of that - from my point of view anyway.

Interviewer
And are you aware of crafting your movements, your responses, your reactions so that the audience understands what's going on?

Douglas
I think movement is a hugely important thing. I'm not sure if British actors, Scottish actors, always do that that well. I think a lot of the ones that I have worked with are very good, but sometimes you do see people, you know I've watched them in Scottish plays and some of the actors are just stuck there or they don't really seem to be aware of what they're doing and you've got to be aware. And I think sometimes the women, they can do lots and lots and it all flows and it can be beautiful but sometimes the men.... Some male actors can do that, most male actors can't. I think that's fine so just keep it to a minimum, don't do that much, and when you do do something, make sure you know at least what you're doing.

Interviewer
Do you think in this production we've spent much time on that? Are you aware of having rehearsed those things?

Douglas
Well, I think that's something that you sort of do pretty much yourself, and then if you're struggling and the Director should be able to help. There was a bit in the scene with me and Chris on the steps; we sort of get together and then she first brings up the story of Sarah Sinclair and he gets all annoyed and I remember you suggested 'Just move, just a little movement, just to show that he's annoyed' and that was quite a help. Just for the little 'Well now' line. That's one thing that comes to mind. Most of the time I think you're thinking 'What's the other person doing? Oh that's quite nice.' And you get influenced by them. I think movement is very important but I think the main thing is you don't need to do - if you're a bit unsure, don't do that much.

Interviewer
I don't see this as a particularly naturalistic production in terms of actions or movement or whatever. Do you have a view on that?

Douglas
Well it's not naturalistic in terms of set - because sometimes you can be in the middle of your office and you're talking to someone on the hill. But I do think the way that people are moving is naturalistic, not natural because it's on a stage so therefore the movement has to be slightly bigger.

I would say the movement in terms of a normal scene is reasonably naturalistic, there are stylised bits but ....

Interviewer
I was thinking of the births and so on. The birth of the twins, and ....

Douglas
Oh it's just the speed that's not naturalistic, well I've never been at a birth, but the actual, you know, what's going on seems to be naturalistic. Screaming and shouting. Probably a bit more than that!

Interviewer
Following that line a bit, what did you think we worked on in rehearsal? Can you describe how the rehearsal process went?

Douglas
When we first started you said we were just going to sketch through but for me we didn't sketch through at all, we actually went through it quite thoroughly right at the start. It was question of do the scene, have a look at the scene, you were questioning people - 'So why is it that he says that there?' And sometimes it would be 'Why is that bit in it? Why has Alistair put this bit in and not another bit?' which you wouldn't normally be doing. Occasionally in a new play you might, but in an adaptation, especially of a long book that's got loads missed out, that's interesting - 'Why are you saying that to her - why didn't you say something else.' So quite often you go in and think that you've thought of that but you haven't really thought it through, which is fine because you're going to do that in rehearsal ....

Interviewer
The same thing happens to me. I go in thinking I've thought it through and then somebody says something and I think 'Oh, I didn't consider that at all', particularly when you've got three people on stage and they've all got different viewpoints on the scene.

Douglas
I think that's what acting is all about. I always loved team sports and acting's like a team sport, all people working together. You can only get a good performance if the other people are on the same sort of wavelength, or trying to help you. Usually actors try and help each other but occasionally you're in things where everyone's out for themselves or you feel that people aren't valuing what you're doing. You really notice the difference when that happens. So I think it's don't make any decisions before everyone comes together, hopefully you'll learn from them and they'll learn from what you're doing as well.

Interviewer
Tell us about your main character.

Douglas
Ewan Tavendale, coarse, tink brute.

Interviewer
Is he?

Douglas
No. Not really at all actually.

Interviewer
Why is he described as such?

Douglas
Because of the general gossiping is such, you know, he's a young lad, and a lot of it's to do with the fact that he's from somewhere else.

Interviewer
We didn't make much of that did we?

Douglas
No, Well you can't - it's not really in the play. That's more for me ........ If it was a different adaptation maybe but... He's from somewhere else, and that's probably the reason why everyone says, 'He's a coarse tink, Ewan', part of the reason. I also think it is because he's, he's not a great talker, and one of the things about these people, whether they be Chris Guthrie or even John Guthrie, you know, they're all very different characters and all members of the Speak, but they're all talkers. It just occurs to me actually; they all talk a good game. But Ewan Tavendale doesn't talk that sort of game at all. He's quite dour.

Interviewer
He's quite laconic isn't he?

Douglas
Yeah, he's quiet, he's very straightforward and he doesn't waste too many words. So therefore the people are suspicious because he's not maybe the sort of person who is constantly gossiping like a lot of them. And the ones who don't gossip such as Chae and Long Rob, they're the ones with great theories on life, so he doesn't gossip nor does he have a big theory on life. So therefore the others, the Speak fills it in for him - so he's a coarse tink. He does have this temper obviously...

Interviewer
There's a darkness about him isn't there, which is not dissimilar to John Guthrie's?

Douglas
Yeah, there are similarities. You see, when you play a part you begin to sort of like them more than other folk probably do...That's why I was surprised when in Fraserburgh, we were packing everything away in the van and this woman was walking past, and I thought she was going to say 'Great show, can I have your autograph?' kind of thing, but actually she shouted out at me - I said Hello, and she shouted 'Aye, you're not nearly good looking enough for your wife' .
(Laughter)

Interviewer
'Why, thank you Ma'am, glad you enjoyed the show.'

Douglas
But it, you know, it obviously wasn't to do with my own personal beauty.....

Interviewer
!

Douglas
But I think it was based on the fact that I'd treated Chris badly and she hadn't forgiven me for that - and you know, when you're playing a part, you're not really aware of that until people start saying things to you....Because obviously he's incredibly..... you know, when there's that hardest scene, it's difficult for the audience to accept....

Interviewer
What, when he comes back from the training?

Douglas
I think most people when they watch it probably assume that he has gone to the war, even though its kind of stated that he's actually not yet gone to France. But you wipe that out because you can't accept his behaviour - because you've seen him in, and I hope that it's quite well built up, this really loving relationship, they're good to each other. There is a scene where he clouts her obviously before that as well and that's another....

Interviewer
Mind you, she has just hit him.

Douglas
Yeah, but there's... Certainly the way that we're doing it is, I get a bit of a hit and then I flatten her.... It's probably just because that's they way the hits worked out in rehearsal, but it is dramatic.

Interviewer
She's ready to be hit as well isn't she? She's ready to be flattened.

Douglas
When Cora's doing it she looks like she's ready to be hit before she hits me.

Interviewer
Are there any key scenes on which you based your journey? Can you talk us through it a bit?

Douglas
Well, sort of, but when you're doing it, it doesn't really feel like that because you really sort of go on and then you're on stage all the time.

Obviously I don't have much of Ewan in the first half, but then it really starts at the beginning of the second half and you just go straight in to the seduction, the scene on the hill, and there's not much time to draw breath really. You do that and then it's straight into the snogging scene and then it's marriage immediately.

Interviewer
He moves fast! But are there points of change for you, and are there points when he moves on?

Douglas
Yes, I mean, I ... it's funny because I feel it happening rather than me deliberately ...

Interviewer
Right, take us through the happening if you can.

Douglas
Right, the beginning is, it's something that I never saw particularly in the book but I've ended up doing it, is making him quite young and a bit glaikit. More glaikit than I'm sure he was ever supposed to be but it just seems - it kinds fits in, it seems to be right compared to whatever else is going on on the stage. And so the opening scene in the second half, he's kind of playing at being a bit cocky and sexy and that, and he is, you know, he's got a bit of confidence. But he is quite young, you know, he doesn't really know quite what to do; when it gets down to the nitty gritty.... So I think the first scene is the confidence, showing he's confident, up the hill saying 'Ah, do you like me then there, oh right,' you know 'Let's not go to the castle' I know that's not in the novel but in the adaptation they just go straight to the neuk by the sea.

So then when it comes to the actual snogging, I think certainly that's in the playing of the scene, he doesn't really have a clue what to do. Certainly that's not in the book actually, from what I can remember ..... He's like a young lad caught in that situation and I think it becomes clear, Sarah Sinclair is a one off and when he came out of that he wasn't you know .. he didn't come out of that going 'Yeah!...'

Interviewer
I always had the sense that he was sort of dragged into that by her.

Douglas
Yes. And his attitude towards her is very 'That wasn't such a good idea.' Then of course by the time of the wedding, I think the wedding is a kind of a glaikit scene. And then there's a bit of a change over, just by the end of the wedding, into the married life and I think that comes with the snog. We've had the snog when we're all over each other with hands and so on, after the storm scene, and then we have the snog after, at the end of the wedding and it's a pure sort of .... you know, ...

Interviewer
Karma ....

Douglas
Karma ....

Interviewer
It's the 'peace and quiet of the marriage bed after the hurly-burly of the chaise longue'.

Douglas
Yes. And I suppose that's a sort of moment, I don't know about a decision, but a point when you suddenly become quite a lot more grown up. And it's just like that, you know. (snaps fingers) And then I feel a lot more grown up and a lot more confident.

Interviewer
And Chris had that line doesn't she, you know, he was 'douce and blithe now with his wife and his home'. I think she expresses that, she vocalises it but you don't.

Douglas
Yes, and then I'm back to the fields and so from then on I'm just thinking 'Oh this is like ....' although two seconds later I do smash her to the ground ..... I'm not really, that's something I just do, I don't think much about that but, I don't know how that reads; all you see is a guy of six feet smashing a girl, not particularly tall, smashing her to the ground, then being told he's got a baby and then being all nice again, you know, and it's difficult to know how that fits together...

Interviewer
Well it's a little roller coaster isn't it? We'll come back to how it fits into the modern thing later.

Douglas
So everything seems all fine after that scene; you don't see that much vulnerability, in Chris as a character, or Ewan doesn't get to see it because she's always so strong - you know, from the start, chatting each other up, right through - the only moment you see it is after he's clouted her, actually. And then she's absolutely distraught, because she's pregnant. That's the only moment actually when you see any sort of, any vulnerability directed towards their relationship.

I suppose that's wedded bliss, wedded bliss after that and the baby comes I think fairly soon after that, we've got the whole scene where it's just myself and Cora for a while and it's just all up in the fields and everything's great. And maybe that feels boring for the audience, but that always feels really nice because it's consolidation, being a really good guy, good marriage and everything, I don't see any cracks showing.

And then the war starts to influence it, the other things come in, I mean they're keen to not let them in initially but war comes in and that's ...

Interviewer
Yes, Chae comes in, Rob gets taken away, all those things, and you hear and see those events ....

Douglas
In a way it's when, and this is probably something that differs from the book, it's when the other people come back in, and I feel that as an actor. Because you've got centre stage, you know, and it's very enjoyable to do all these kind of domesticated scenes and to have had the wedding, which is tremendous fun just to do, and then, I always feel coming to the end of that, I always feel a bit sad, you know, not just as me. Because you think, 'Oh this bit's over now and ... it's not just two of us in a little box, doing our own thing .... other people come in; you feel you're getting further apart, Chris and Ewan I mean.

Interviewer
And then it's off to the war.

Douglas
Yeah, well the build up to the war is ... I mean that's something I have to say I never even thought about or played really until quite a bit into the run. In fact, it's only in performances that it's happened, that scene is quite different now. Going off to the war has become much more poignant. There's kind of a slower build up. Chae goes away. Obviously it's the first thing. Chae's gone. And then it's, Rob is not going. And then getting the flak - when Tommy has that line about, 'Some like Tavendale that farmed their own land didn't have to go. Others weren't so lucky... ' And it's quite pointed, a little dig, then straight after that you see Rob ....

Interviewer
Getting dragged away.

Douglas
It's the fact that Rob gets dragged away - he doesn't go to the war, he gets dragged away to be put in a straitjacket. And I see that, so I'm really feeling the build-up from seeing Chae going. Just before the Rob scene, Chae comes back and all the woods have been torn down, and then, coming on at the end of that scene, watching Chae going away, I've got a line, and I can really feel it from then on. It's a real downward slope: I've seen Chae, you know, he's lost all this and he's come back and he's obviously really distraught. And then seeing Rob going, then Ewan and Chris are on their own with just the baby... And then Cora has started touching my hair, ruffling it as I'm working in the fields. We didn't discuss it, she just did it in one performance. And I find myself thinking, 'I can't have another kid just now', and I can hardly even take the rest of it, my responsibilities. It's too much for a young lad - 19 or whatever. And he's not so stupid that he doesn't know what's going on. But he decides to go off to the war...So, yeah, that is quite a strange bit. And it changed the going away. The 'I'm away to Aberdeen'. She knows now, the way we are playing it, and that influences the next few lines, she knows that I'm going to go, and she's like kidding herself, and then when I'm going now, it's almost like - it's not apologetic, but not trying to just shout at her or totally brush her off or just say 'I'm off'.

So that's something that I've noticed, it's interesting what you notice as you're doing the performance, the changes that come into it. Sometimes, you'll be sitting and you won't be thinking of anything new and somebody will do something - especially if somebody touches you when you don't expect it, you know, and I think that only works if you're working together and you're getting on well.

Interviewer
So on a different tangent, you are exploring in that way. There are things that are changing which are about reacting, you're reacting really to circumstances?

Douglas
There's massive things have changed. I mean things are different every night. Especially in things like the wedding which has been a fluid scene. So, yeah, I mean I think one of the most interesting things about being an actor is doing the same scene over again. It's not a searching for different ways to do it just for the sake of it, but being ready if somebody comes up with something new, with a reaction.

Interviewer
And just while we're on that, how much are you looking at what you're doing from the outside, and thinking, 'They've done that, but if I do this, it won't work' How much are you aware of that?

Douglas
Well, hopefully not. Ideally you wouldn't be aware of that at all, you would just instinctively do it. I think, but it's quite difficult to be ....

Interviewer
So you don't have any filter around what reaction there might be?

Douglas
Well you do because you're aware that you're doing something new, so you know you're not going to start tearing somebody's clothes off - there's obviously limits to what you can do.

Interviewer
So are you not aware of the audience and how things will seem? I mean, imagine a situation where there might be a reaction that seems emotionally right or whatever but you can understand, you have an idea, it will actually not help because it will make the scene too long or it will give a red herring ...

Douglas
I don't know if I've got that sort of filter for something, because it's instinctive when you're doing things. I mean you maybe have but it's not something that you think about at the time. There's one, there's only one example I can think of and that's, to go further on again, when I come back and I'm all nasty and she threatens me with a knife. We've got a little look, and I think that the audience - it's very difficult for the audience to tell exactly what's going on with that look but they know something's going on and it's between sort the two of us what's going on. And at the end of that, I can remember in rehearsal I was doing a little nod of my head which to me meant 'Right, okay, if that's the way you're going to be, I'm going to bugger off'. Obviously there's no way the audience could understand that - it probably came across as the opposite.

Interviewer
That's a good example.

Douglas
But during the performance, it might have been the last performance or a couple of times when we were doing that little bit, and Cora did a little nod of her head, which I was pretty sure was like 'Aye I've got your measure now'. And that for Ewan was a pretty devastating moment, for Ewan, and I wanted to do some sort of reaction but I thought - I could remember doing a shake of the head was wrong before, so I didn't.

Interviewer
So there is that filter .... I think it's an important filter actually; because acting isn't just about the internal, is it? It's got to be about what you present to the audience so they understand what's going on. And it seems to me, whether it's instinctive or not, that filter must be there, otherwise I think you've got to be worried.

Douglas
That moment when she touches my hair, that's a very clear thing that the audience can see, and the second time she did it, I was just coming up to that moment and I thought, 'I wonder if she'll do that, I really hope she does' so she did it again, then I immediately thought, 'Oh right, so what's the right way to react to that again?' Because I hadn't - we'd had no rehearsal - I just did it, because I didn't expect it. --- So I was thinking 'Oh wait a moment, if I just go away like that, if I really pull away quickly, it's not right; it gives the wrong impression'.

Interviewer
In some way it defines the difference between extreme Stanislavsky and extreme Brecht. I think my basic understanding of an extreme Stanislavsky position would be that your internal reaction is the right one whereas my understanding of Brecht is that actually it doesn't matter really what you're thinking, what you're feeling, what's important is what you tell to the audience.

Douglas
It's actually a mixture ....

Interviewer
It's combination of the two and I think probably that's where all good acting lies. But it seems to me you do need that - awareness of how this is going to look as well as how it feels.

Douglas
I would agree with that, yeah.

Interviewer
Let's just finish on the journey. There are two more scenes aren't there? There's one when you come back and then there's the one when you're actually killed.

Douglas
Well, the one when I come back, which I think is an important scene in the book - it's the scene I remember from when I first read the book years ago. I've got to construct - it's the only bit actually, it's quite rare that we do this - you know, I've got to have some reason, 'Why do I behave like this?' If you read the book you might get a reason why he's like that but then you've got to have a reason you can play as an actor, that fits in. So that involves making up a little bit for yourself, which I wouldn't usually say you should, everybody would probably say the same, I would never write down my life history and my granny was this ... who cares about that? Because it's all in the script. You know, I think he goes away and he's obviously brutalised in some way and, my reason's changed; originally it was to do with being worried about going to the war and being in this sort of all male environment, but now the reason's more to do with the fact that he's been taken away from Chris and a situation which is almost perfect - it's almost an unreal situation because they couldn't carry on quite like that .... I think it is a totally blissful thing and he's been trying to keep this war out and he doesn't care about it, because he's got Chris and he's got, he ends up being matey with Long Rob and Chae and it's all, you know, but Chris is the main force, and his land, obviously. He's totally simple, straight down the middle; I think most people - most people in the modern day have got so many other things going on in their heads it would be difficult for them to reach that ....

Interviewer
Yes...

Douglas
... and I think he would definitely feel that he is absolutely 'Oh God how lucky I am that I have got to this situation' and then he's taken from it and put in this other situation where the sides to his character come out, and he can be as laddish as the next person, he can drink beer, he can be abusive, he can fight and all the rest of it, he's tough. So all these things suddenly come to the front; it's just he can't hold the two sides together. There's two sides to him, there's this loving guy you know who lives for his wife and his work; and then there's this guy surrounded by all these other guys, and he's too straightforward a guy to have these two things existing at the same time. It's very hard to play because it's short, but I'm trying to do it now so that he's gradually realising even as he's doing the things that it's unreasonable behaviour...

Interviewer
Right.

Douglas
So, I'm not quite sure, I think the audience probably thinks he has gone off to the war and been damaged there. It would make, it would have been easier ....

Interviewer
Yes, if he'd seen loads of dead bodies in France....

Douglas
... he then came back and was like that....

Interviewer
Yes. Okay, and finally your last scene.

Douglas
Well, the last scene, obviously you have a different approach, because you know it's your really good speech! I mean I'm sure, I'm sure any actor would probably think that... and you know you get to walk on and you're like this ghost or ...... and they've just done this really good bit before... I didn't have a full realisation of this at first, I used to think this was my big bit, it's me now. But then you were discussing it in rehearsal, and I realised, the more and more I do it, the more I realise it's actually to do with what they're doing as much as what I'm doing. And that makes it easier. I do think it's a difficult bit but you should be able to do that bit well because it's beautiful writing and it seems poignant, one of the most poignant bits of the play. And you just have to try and say it, it shouldn't really be hammed up. I get to sit down, it's nice and comfy...

Interviewer
And he's not unhappy, is he?

Douglas
Well, I mean I wouldn't go that far. Yeah, I think he's devastated, but his devastation was probably reached .....

Interviewer
Some while ago .....

Douglas
I mean the way I'm thinking about it now is devastation is the moment where she's got the knife.

Interviewer
Right, right.

Douglas
In the scene before, quite a while ago when he realises that he's totally screwed it up. Although it says in the scene, 'I realise then I'd lost her, as soon as I climbed out of the trench'. For me that's not right. Just because he says it doesn't mean that it's true. So I think that scene, when you are in the flashback, I can now hear little noises coming from Chae, and from Chris as well, and that informs the scene, so in a way that's the easiest bit, and the scene before is the hardest bit ...

Interviewer
Why should we do a production of Sunset Song at this stage? Is it current, do you think?

Douglas
Yes. Yes I think it is. I've been a bit surprised, especially as I'm playing Ewan and involved in the love bit, I don't think any of the reviews has mentioned love. I feel that that bit works quite well and it's a lot of the second half. In the whole play I think love is very important. I think the whole First World War, the stuff about changing, the stuff about Scottish society is extremely important as well, but, you know, why is that important? Because the changes in the way people react, the way people love are not so great. So that is obviously the universal thing. Change, and it's very interesting to see in parallel with a society from eighty years ago, with massive differences in the way that they lived, but there's still similarities in the way that they loved. When I read the reviews I was thinking 'Oh I expected them to talk about Chris's love for Ewan', you know, and I'm biased in that because I'm soaked in that part and I think that comes across to me as important, and I remember it was when I read the book first. When you read the adaptation, you think maybe that's not quite the same, but I feel when we're doing it that that isn't a problem. All the questions that it raises about 'How well do they know each other?', 'Was it just like a crush that people would normally have when they were 17 or 18? Or, would it really have carried on?' But you can't tell of course because the war comes on.

And there's lots of nobility involved in the way he gets up out the trench and it's difficult for people to think about that in modern era, somebody doing something like that. The thing that's interesting about the way that that last speech is put together is he's a straightforward guy and he's totally logical and it brought it home to me 'What would it have been like if I had been in the First World War and I'd been in a trench and had someone I was in love with back home?' And all the love would be heightened by being in the trench - even if it was just somebody you were going out with - but you would immediately think 'Oh God' What Ewan thinks - you know, 'I couldn't believe it was me standing in a trench'. It's exactly what you'd do...

Interviewer
So you can see a learning point if you like for somebody today watching it?

Douglas
Yes. I mean if they get into it enough to realise that it's just people like them - especially people reading it at school, it's people of that age. Some people were cheating to go there in World War I, they were saying 'I'm actually 16 not 15', so they were going off at 15 to be killed, standing in a trench, firing a gun, never really knew what was going on, ordered over the top, usually, not all but mainly poor folk, found themselves in that position. They didn't care about what the politics were. They didn't understand the alliances. And so that side of it I think brings it home. We should never forget what happened in the First World War as distinct from the Second World War. And also the love issues transcend all sorts of time boundaries and place boundaries.

Of course the most important thing about the novel is the character of Chris, who is a tremendous character. To say role model, I don't know if it's right, but I would say yes for any one, male and female, but I think especially female, especially if you're young. I do sex education work, and one of the biggest problems is finding role models for both sexes, especially in some areas role models for males because sometimes the father won't be there. But also sometimes the fear that young girls have of actually being an individual and expressing themselves and saying what they want beyond the herd mentality. And Chris is a tremendous example of how to do that, standing up against all sorts of different people. And also you see her thinking, 'Oh, what if I did this, what if I did that?' It's not just like she's a cardboard cut out. Just the fact that she has to go through all these terrible things happening to her - her mother killing the twins, father dying, father trying to go to bed with her, being left, all the things she has to go through and the strength with which she goes through them and the humour, and the joy that she has for her life. That's what's important about it.

Interviewer
Okay, can you say anything about Ewan's sexuality?

Douglas
Well, he's straight!

Interviewer
Is it important - in the play, not his straightness but his, how he relates to sex?

Douglas
Yes. Yes. It's important when you do the part, and it probably is important that he should... I mean I think he is in some ways a typical young man. And I don't know if young lads would have the guts to realise themselves in him because you know - when you're young in your early experiences of sex you want to look like you know a lot more than you do. And, especially when you're in a strange position like him. Sarah Sinclair aside, let's say that was his first, but the second woman that he's with is somebody that he's in love with. It's not just somebody who he's drunk and got off with at a party. So, yeah I do think that his sexuality is important, but I'm not quite sure how. I think it's more his sexiness in terms of being able to attract her - why does he attract her? There must be some reason why he attracts her. And it's quite difficult sometimes to see that.

Interviewer
I always think he is - we touched on this a bit earlier - I think he is quite like John Guthrie, but John Guthrie becomes embittered when we see him but Jean fancied John; they're both hard-working, strong, slightly taciturn and slightly dark men but there's something attractive in them. Does that make sense?

Douglas
Yes, but I mean there's a laid-backness to Ewan that is slightly different.

Interviewer
Well he doesn't have that religious thing hanging over him that John Guthrie has.

Douglas
He didn't seem to have anything hanging over him actually. He didn't seem to give a toss to what the gossips say; he gets angry about it when people say things -'They should have their backsides kicked' - but it's not a big deal. He could easily go out punching people if he wanted to but he doesn't let it influence his life that much.

Interviewer
Do you see it as a nostalgic play?

Douglas
I don't really know.

Interviewer
Do you think we have avoided nostalgia in the production and can you remember how?

Douglas
It depends what you mean by nostalgia. I'm not saying that I think the period was terrible but if you're looking at it realistically I don't know what there is to yearn for. I mean, the contact with the land is something that does seem to be a really strong thing, you could say you could maybe yearn for something like that, but that's not nostalgic because people still have it. You know, some people still have an attitude, if you live in the town you don't have it quite so much, but I know a lot of people who still have that contact with the land. But the direct contact that they had, that obviously has gone, the direct tilling of the land, wringing life out of it with your bare hands, you know, that's gone.

So you could say that the only way that it is nostalgic is in that way. There does seem something that is quite noble about that, but then they worked ridiculously hard, the circumstances in which they lived were hard but not as hard as people who lived in cities at that time. You know, people ten to a basement down the High Street in Edinburgh somewhere, a lot more disease and everything, you know, their lives in the country were much better than that. Nostalgia is not such an issue for me. I suppose some people might think 'Oh yes, it's the old Scotland, where everyone was ...', but then people were quite nasty to each other, you know. I'll tell you one thing, we went to the Grassic Gibbon Centre, we were reading - Tommy found this bit in one of his letters from him - and he wrote, 'I yearn for three things: I yearn that I'll write something half decent that people will like'. Something about love that he yearned for. The third thing was 'I yearn for the oncoming of Communism' and all this, that is obviously what the whole of the last speech in the play is about. And the idea that you can have such pure political ideology is just something that I am quite interested in but I've grown to accept that I don't .... it can't exist in the present political system. The idea that Rob and Chae both have these clear political viewpoints and they're tremendously admirable characters even though they don't agree, and the idea that they can stand by their principles in a way ....

Interviewer
There's a simplicity there ....

Douglas
And it's noble and it's like to me it's like being a man, you know, in the right way, standing by what you believe in. In a way Ewan does it as well, it's not a political act, leaving the trench, but trying to get back to Chris again. But those things I think it's difficult for anyone to do nowadays. And if they do have those views, they're a bit frowned upon. It would be difficult for somebody to be such a good, likeable, normal person as they are and have strong political viewpoints and have the chance to express them. So I suppose that is something I would say has pretty much gone.

Interviewer
Yes. I think nostalgia has often been used in Scottish theatre. Would you say that's a feature of Scottish theatre?

Douglas
Yes. Yes, I think it's to do with language a lot. And I think there are many plays where the Scottish language has been used and I like the use of it. I like the idea of using it but, yeah, I've been in quite a lot of plays where words like 'heeligoleerie' or other ... 'Och, I've been in a fair heeligoleerie' and other words similar to that and every word that Hugh McDiarmid has ever written is kind of shoe-horned in. And I have to say these are plays by extremely well-respected people sometimes, and sometimes I go 'Why?' You know, sometimes these words seem to come from 200 years apart. So then you've got another word will be coming in and it'll be 'raj', you know, from 200 years later, and I don't know if it's nostalgic but it's almost like yeah, let's get all the good words, all the Scots, and try to mould them into one, and maybe there's quite a noble idea behind that, but I find it, I just don't understand what relevance it has.

I mean I do think the Scots language has a relevance if used in the right way but if it's just like 'Let's get all the good words we've ever had' you know .....

I know McDiarmid tried to do that but I do think from what little I know about his stuff, he managed to do it in a successful manner with the words that fit in with each other and created something that has a value more than just using these words.

Interviewer
Talk to me a little bit about the use of Scots language in this play and how we approached that.

Douglas
Well it's very diluted in this play I think. I realised that actually in Bathgate when I was coming out to do my spiel and the audience were blank faced. I was doing the spiel that is quite near the beginning, and actually the audience were blank faced, on Saturday night for the first 20 or 30 minutes ... I know that some of the bits I'm doing are a little bit broader because I'm from the north east, and it works like that but of course it doesn't work if the audience doesn't understand it. So we have a duty to make it understandable. So that was the first thing. And I think we also had a duty to make it at least with a flavour of the north-east, and I think we've achieved that reasonably well. But that's the thing about a north-eastern accent, you can do a slight north-eastern accent and everyone's baffled, everywhere else south of Dundee. But there's no point in just having the accent and alienating anybody, but also you don't want it all to be done in Glasgow accents because then you're saying, you know, it doesn't matter and it does. I mean it's fascinating, the people there still do speak in this dialect that is much more different from English than say, Slovak is to Czech, even though they are two different languages. And, you know, loads more people speak the Doric naturally than speak Gaelic. Gaelic has colossal sums of money pumped into it, Doric has not one pence. You know, these are sorts of little bees in my bonnet that I've had over the years and I don't know how they affect what we're doing but it's made me think a little more about it being accessible.

Interviewer
Right.

Douglas
How do you make it accessible and how do we also keep it true? You'll never satisfy people from the north-east. Although I haven't heard any complaints so far, I have to say. I mean I think we'll get them in Aberdeen.

Interviewer
Yes. That farmer from Turriff or wherever he was from seemed to be quite happy.

Douglas
Yes, that's right, yes, because he was obsessed with love. And the things like love are much more important than things like accents.

Interviewer
Yes. You only worry about the accents when the play is not good enough in a way.

Douglas
Yes, I think so, yes.

Interviewer
When it gets in the way.

Douglas
I don't know, if I was nothing to do with this production and I came along, I'd be interested to see what would be my reaction.... especially if it was five years ago and I was a bit more of an angry young fool. You know, I'd be interested to see what, whether that would have made a difference. Probably not, because it is such a strong story, and it's well told.

Interviewer
Do you see it as Scottish or north-eastern as a piece?

Douglas
I certainly see it as north-eastern. It's always been my favourite book. I think one of the reasons for that is because I read it, and I'd read loads of stuff that I loved, felt some sort of vague connection to, but I'd never read anything that connected like that to me, even though my upbringing was in no way similar to that in the book, apart from the fact that there was lots of similar type countryside around. But there's something about the way that it's written, something about the way the characters speak, and the rhythm, even though he didn't use that many Doric words in it. And I'd never, you know, at that time it was very rare to hear those words, even in a Scottish television programme. So there was something really north-eastern in that. I was really surprised when she says that line ' You're a fool to say that in Scotland', and then, you know, when I first read that, I thought that's not Scotland, it's the north-east. But of course when you get a bit older, you get a broader view. It's very north-eastern to me, the way that the characters are and those tremendous, typical north-eastern blokes, and down to earth, not flowery words but quite often you know strong - this is a stereotype but you know it's my image ....

And then there's the negative side which is the dourness and the, not necessarily being more religious but sort of a bit of the John Guthrie at his nasty side, and the lack of touch, you know, being unable to show affection, things like that, you know. You really see that in men. I've never met any north-eastern girls like Chris Guthrie! (Laughs)

Interviewer
They're few and far between.

Douglas
Not, you know, to insult any north eastern lassies that I knew....I don't think anybody's ever met anybody like her in their life possibly.

Interviewer
Do you think the production is particularly Scottish?

Douglas
Yes.

Interviewer
Can you say how?

Douglas
I think the accents are giving a flavour of the north-east but they're at least ....

Interviewer
More in style than in accent or whatever .... would you say, you wouldn't get this in England or .....

Douglas
I've lots of conflicting views. It's a very difficult one that. Something about the way that people talk to each other and the criticism; I don't think it's uniquely Scottish anyway; there's something very Scottish about, you know, not supposed to say words like, you know, love, and you know you're kind of being ....

Interviewer
Is that the production or the play?

Douglas
Well that's in the play but it's brought out. I think we've pinpointed .... the moment when she says that, I think it's quite pinpointed. And the moment at the very beginning when they meet up, where Chae Strachan and John Guthrie meet up and the little chat they have there and the standoffishness.

Interviewer
Right.

Douglas
But you don't get offended if somebody just kind of ignores you a little, it doesn't really matter .... But you know I don't think you can say that's uniquely Scottish; I'm sure there's people, that that's behaviour of people in London, Newcastle, you know; Europe maybe not.

Interviewer
Thank you Douglas.

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