Interview with Pasi Sahlberg transcript 2007
INT: Interviewer
PS: Pasi Sahlberg
Identifier | Text |
INT: | Pasi, thank you very much for being with us in Glasgow today. Can I start by asking you what are the common challenges in curriculum development globally? |
PS: | Well probably the common challenge is that in many, if not most countries, the curriculum is not really what young people are expecting from school, and as today when we are talking about the knowledge society and knowledge economy, challenges for schools and teaching and learning particularly, we get another set of issues that are not really included in the curriculum. I’m not talking about the Scotland case because I don’t know enough, but if you ask the global issue, I think this is the main challenge really to make the curriculum more relevant for young people first of all, and then more responding to these new ideas. And I really emphasise the new things that the knowledge society brings. I think if we keep on just increasing the things that we have done so far in the curriculum we are not likely to get the new things out of the school, we will get probably more of the same things we have always got, but not the issues related to creativity and problem solving and being able to work and do things together and understand different things. So that’s my challenge number one. |
INT: | Can I then ask how do teachers and students benefit from continuous curriculum change? |
PS: | Well, let me first say that they do not really benefit too much if the changes are not very well thought. Unfortunately, in many education systems the curriculum reforms they repeat the same things over and over again, and in these systems it’s very easy to find teachers and pupils and parents and everyone basically who are frustrated and tired, and very sceptical about these things. But if the curriculum is seen in a different way and used as an instrument for schools to improve what they do and see the values behind the work that they do - I’m going to talk about that as well a little bit today – I think as soon as teachers and schools benefit from this type of curriculum, that is not the old curriculum that we have had so far, then I’m sure that as soon as teachers and schools will be able to do things in a new way they will directly spread that over to the classrooms and pupils. |
INT: | Okay, so in your opinion do assessment arrangements and related accountability policies affect teaching and learning within schools? |
PS: | Well, first of all I think we need to clarify what do we mean by assessment. Assessment is absolutely necessary part of any modern education anywhere really. But if we understand accountability as something that can be seen in many or some countries around the world, then we have a lot of evidence actually now that these accountability policies have a direct impact on the curriculum or curricular control, which means basically that teachers will choose the content that they teach and they reformulate the knowledge by packaging them in the small units that will be then tested, and they change their pedagogies, the ways of teaching, to make sure that pupils are prepared for these tests. And this is at the core of this strong accountability movement that we have had around. So my response is that this is a very I would say dangerous way of believing that education can really be changed by simply introducing something that may work well in the industry or business but will not work in education because of the different nature of education. So we need to be very careful when we think about assessment and holding schools and teachers accountable to make sure that this accountability also will strengthen and support the good learning that they’re doing. |
Question and Answers
Female: | Thank you very Minister. I know you’re keen to take a couple of questions, although time is pressing and parliament business awaits. Do we have any questions? There are some static mikes and I think we have a couple of roving mikes, if I could see a hand or two. We’ve got one here. Yes, would you like to move too the mike perhaps, and if anyone else would like to ask one or you could move or maybe take a couple of questions at the same time. Thank you, I you could let me know who you are and where you’re from. |
Question: | My name is Avril Williamson, and I want to go back to … sorry, is this working, I’m quite short! The very welcome announcement of the additional three hundred teachers particularly to be targeted to pre-school and in areas of deprivation. I’m a wee bit confused about further guidance that appears to have been given to authorities directing them to send these teachers firstly to independent and private providers. And these providers obviously are part of our service and very important, but they don’t necessarily have children from the most deprived areas, and in fact in the larger cities they’ll have children from outwith that city. So I’m a wee bit confused, I’m getting a bit of a mixed message. |
Fiona Hyslop: | Well I don’t know which local authority you’re from and what guidance your authority has given, but we’re very clear nationally that we want to have nursery teachers provided for all teachers, but I’m kind of conscious of the challenges that will bring so that’s why targeting in deprived areas is most important. But if we do have a vision of a childcare and nursery and development care agenda for Scotland that is the match of some of our Scandinavian countries, then we do have to identify that not all nursery education is provided in state provided nurseries in the Council, that some of it is partner providers. And if we take a child’s perspective, if you’re three year old or four year old, it doesn’t matter which part of the agenda you’re involved in, you have to have access to a teacher. And that’s part of the longer term agenda, but the most immediate agenda for provision of the nursery teachers is in the deprived areas. The bigger picture of how we expand childcare development and education generally is to make sure that we have teachers for all children. But I think that’s probably an issue to take up with your local authority in the first instance. |
Female: | Thank you for that. Is there one more quick question? Can I see any hands? Yes, can you move forward to mike three and please, please be brief because time’s against us? |
Question: | I’ll be very brief. My name’s Helen Connor from Coatbridge High. I was just wondering if the Minister can give us a timescale on her reduction in class sizes in Primary 1 to 3 to eighteen? |
Fiona Hyslop: | Right. Well, I’m very keen that we actually have an agenda where we benefit particularly those from deprived areas. I think it’s a big challenge undoubtedly, but I want to see year on year progress. I thing one of the problems we’ve seen in the last four years is when there was a class size reduction for primary 1, it was a last dash in the final year. And one of the things that I’ll be doing is discussing with COSLA and local authorities. Each local authority will be different. I mean, I come from West Lothian which probably has one of the biggest challenges because we’ve got a growing young population. So I think we have to be responsive to each different local authority area, but I’m absolutely determined that those class sizes will be driven down. I want to see it particularly down to eighteen in deprived areas first, but I think it’s a big challenge and I will be making sure that we have initial teachers, as I’ve announced in my speech, but also to make sure that the jobs are funded, to make sure we can move as fast as we can. But I’ll tell you this, I will not jeopardise the quality of teaching that we have in our schools, and I think that the importance in working with the teacher training colleges is essential, because one of the best things I hear when I go round schools is the quality of probationers and I want to make sure the pace, the scale, is responsive to council needs, keeps the quality of initial teachers coming through the system, because I think with that we can get the benefit for our young pupils. |
Female: | Thank you very much, Minister. I know you’d like to stay and take more questions, but it is a Wednesday and you have to, yo have to head back to Edinburgh. Thank you for being here, thank you for supporting the Festival. Once again, Fiona Hyslop. |
Fiona Hyslop: | Thank you. |